President (To Win Colorado) See Full Big Line

(D) Joe Biden*

(R) Donald Trump

80%

20%

CO-01 (Denver) See Full Big Line

(D) Diana DeGette*

(R) V. Archuleta

98%

2%

CO-02 (Boulder-ish) See Full Big Line

(D) Joe Neguse*

(R) Marshall Dawson

95%

5%

CO-03 (West & Southern CO) See Full Big Line

(D) Adam Frisch

(R) Jeff Hurd

50%

50%

CO-04 (Northeast-ish Colorado) See Full Big Line

(R) Lauren Boebert

(D) Trisha Calvarese

90%

10%

CO-05 (Colorado Springs) See Full Big Line

(R) Jeff Crank

(D) River Gassen

80%

20%

CO-06 (Aurora) See Full Big Line

(D) Jason Crow*

(R) John Fabbricatore

90%

10%

CO-07 (Jefferson County) See Full Big Line

(D) B. Pettersen

(R) Sergei Matveyuk

90%

10%

CO-08 (Northern Colo.) See Full Big Line

(D) Yadira Caraveo

(R) Gabe Evans

70%

30%

State Senate Majority See Full Big Line

DEMOCRATS

REPUBLICANS

80%

20%

State House Majority See Full Big Line

DEMOCRATS

REPUBLICANS

95%

5%

Generic selectors
Exact matches only
Search in title
Search in content
Post Type Selectors
August 18, 2007 03:23 PM UTC

Weekend Open Thread

  • 81 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“But that’s not the way it happened.”

–Alferd Packer, from Cannibal! The Musical

Tweet
Share

Comments

81 thoughts on “Weekend Open Thread”

  3. http://www.nytimes.c…

    Rep. Don Young earmarks $10M for an interchange in Lee County, FL.  The county never asked for it, doesn’t want it, returns the money. Land adjacent to the proposed interchange happens to be owned…..ta ta!….by a major Republican fundraiser!

    I know, I know, Dems do this shit too. But the scales of corruption are very heavily tilted with the Republican party in the lower, bigger, bucket.

  4. For the (right)wingnuts here who keep claiming that voters really want someone on the cloud-cuckooland right and are just voting for Dems because… uh… well…

    Here’s an interesting take on the Ohio Senate race. It makes a strong argument that what the voters really want is… liberals.

    1. …I heard Michael Moore at DU.  He pointed out – he has not been the only one – that when pollsters ask voters where they stand on issues, the responses are overwhelmingly “liberal.”  They want government to make sure that the air and water is safe, schools are good, health care is available. AND, willing to pay for these benefits with increased taxes.

      Nine months later, those same people went into the voting booth……and elected “conservatives!”  Karl Rove’s Zombie Crew went to work and got people to vote against what they want. 

      I seems like, since 2006, voters are starting to shake off the zombie shackles and are increasingly understanding that you won’t get clean air – or intact bridges – with the Republican programs.

        1. … an estimated 5-6% stolen, fraudulent, or denied votes, there are still WAY too many people voting for those who vote against their own interests.

    3. but notice that the keyword is populist, a little bit different from liberal.  Populism brings a lot of strands, liberals, moderates and centrists, together. We are seeing people who need good jobs, blue collar, white collar and even highly educated well paid professionals, losing ground to those with enormous accumulated wealth.

      Most people don’t have enough invested capital to live on and find themselves a divorce, lost job or serious illness away from pretty dire straights.  The gap between that overwhelming majority and a tiny elite is growing wider at an alarming rate.

      A Dem candidate perceived as a liberal elitist (although the true elite are almost exclusively Republican) isn’t going to do well in this climate but neither is a moderate Dem seen as joined at the hip with the big corporate interests. People want real change and are looking to more populist candidates to bring that change about.

      1. …not unlike 100 years ago.  The swell of populism, using very rough parameters, after the crash of 1893 (??), Teddy Roosevelt’s leadership in trust busting, then the setting of the stage for FDR after the disastrous market boom and bust of the 20’s. 

        I hope to get to vote for Edwards when I’m in Florida. I prefer Gore, but until his hat is in the ring, oh well. Hillary is just too much of the DLC same ole same ole.  Better than an R, but only by degree.

        If I were a Pub, I’d vote for Ron Paul just to send a message. His positions are very scary, but I think that down in his heart he is anti-corporatist and anti-war, which somewhat defines populism.

        In my wildest dreams, this is deja vu all over again.  Maybe I’ll have food to eat and some penicillin when I’m old…..er.

      2. Extremely true…..Does anyone in here remember George Wallace?  Or Lester Madox?  They were populists while definitely not of the liberal elite variety.

        1. populism is coming from a different place than the populism you mention (Wallace, Madox) which, while also about the little guy against corrupt forces, was mainly fueled by resistance to the idea of racial equality and the government seen as imposing it. 

          Today, it’s about people losing economic ground, hope for upward mobility, and feeling ignored by a government in which all concern for seeing to the public good have been trumped by  partisan political considerations, a government by incompetent political hacks. 

          It’s about watching the U.S.A. morph into a big brother state having little to do with the free, open and egalitarian state set forth, albeit not always lived up to, in our constitution.  It’s about  wanting our elected representatives to represent the interests of ordinary Americans, not just those who can afford huge lobbying operations.

          The Dem party needs to answer these concerns or just relying on the Republicans screwing up won’t be enough.
           

          1. Is the political class getting way out of step with the concerns of a large chunk of the populace. So populism can be good (today), bad (racism), or another large pressure group (Reform party).

            If looked at this way there is no set “populist” platform but rather it is defined as a large political movement coming from the populace.

            ??? – dave

            1. and today Dems have a chance to be the party of change for the majority who say we are going in the wrong direction.  Better not blow it by going with an old school  establishment, Washington as usual candidate  People vote much more from the gut for President and people are willing to split tickets to vote for local and congressional candidates for practical reasons but for President based much more on emotion.

              Polls at the time showed that though most people had polled  on the anti side on the issues as compared to Reagan’s stands on those same issues they still voted for Reagan, not even connecting him with the issues but with the whole Morning in America image. Pure “I like how this feels”. 

              If Dems don’t pick a candidate who can run convincingly on bold, meaningful change and, as a result, fail to take back the Presidency after the disaster of the Republican Bush presidency, the party will never recover. The Dem base will be too devastated  and demoralized.  The energetic volunteers who have worked so hard since 2004 will vanish.

              The Dems will become the party that just can’t get it done no matter how much they have going for them.  Having a majority in both houses won’t be enough to make grass-roots Dems feel any better about it with a veto-wielding Republican in the White House this time. It’s absolutely do or die for Dems in 2008.

                2. The Reagan years had moved everything to the right. There was virtually no such thing as too conservative whereas liberal had become a dirty word, even among Dems.  The  Dems wanted to be seen as not much less conservative but smarter than Bush Sr. on the economy and Bill ran as a pro-business triangulator.  People were actually looking for adjustment without sweeping change from the previous Republican administrations.  Reagan had practically attained sainthood, after all, and he had just left office four years prior. 

                  This time, people are disgusted and angry with EVERYTHING about the status quo.  They don’t want triangulating.  They don’t want a few nips and tucks.  They want a brand new day.

      3. but the elected politicians from the two majors are pretty much indistinguishable in terms of priorities and getting things done.

        Pols from both parties are mostly about getting reelected. 

        Elected politicians from the GOP use the war as a political football to accuse those who don’t support them of being bad.

        Elected Dems use the war as a political football to rail against the GOP.  But they cherish this war like a precious gem, and wouldn’t do anything to end it.  They get too much mileage out of it. 

        Folks don’t vote “Greens” or “Libertarian” because they say they don’t want to waste their vote. 
        But a vote for a GOP or Dem Congressman, if history is any guide, is wasted. 

  5. While we all know our very own Dick Wad has said these very things about Colorado, Congressional Republicans are now making the same concessions about not being able regain seats or keep the Presidency:

    Π²Π‚ΡšI think our partyΠ²Π‚β„’s chances for winning the majority back next time are pretty bleak at the moment,Π²Π‚Ρœ Mr. LaHood said in an interview, Π²Π‚Ρšand I will admit to you that being in the minority is less fun.Π²Π‚Ρœ

    Π²Π‚ΡšPeople are going to continue to have heartburn over the war,Π²Π‚Ρœ he said. Π²Π‚ΡšDemocrats will win the White House, hold their majority in the House and in the Senate in 2008, and then in 2010 we will have an extraordinary opportunity in the off-year of a Democratic presidency and Congressional majorities to possibly win it back. But it is not going to happen the next time,Π²Π‚Ρœ in 2008
    http://www.nytimes.c…

    I don’t know whether to blame them for lack of spine, or for lack of principles which put them in this place.

    1. “Senator Wayne Allard, Republican of Colorado, has already announced plans not to seek re-election, setting the stage for a competitive race to succeed him. A handful of other Republicans, including Senator John W. Warner of Virginia and Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, are said to be weighing retirement. Neither Mr. Warner nor Mr. Hagel have publicly committed to seek re-election.”

  6. For more info:
    http://www.nationals…

    And while these Colorado families have already sacrificed so much for the exploitation of their land by the Oil & Gas industry, Cons like Sen. Penry and Sen. McElhany want to milk it for all it’s worth, regardless of the long term costs.

    1. I could figure out some of the shots, but what a lack of substance.  Why watch a guy struggle across some kind of dirt pile by a machine in Rullison? 

      I hope no one paid for that video, it sucks. And if any group hopes to present it to hearings or other bodies, figure a long bathroom break on the part of those investigating.

      1. The lady who will only talk with a cameraman or congressman. As you can tell I have never talked with her. Otherwise an interesting video…I just can’t stand Tweeti.

          1. The Blancetts reside in New Mexico and have even started an organization to fight the drilling. However, she ignores people she deems unimportant. Quite frustrating really, but I won’t bore you with the whole story.

    1. Lets look at the head of Mine Safety, Richard Stickler. In 2006, Republican President Bush recess-appointed Stickler, a former Murray Energy executive, whom the Senate had twice rejected because the mines he managed Π²Π‚Ρšincurred injury rates double the national average.Π²Π‚Ρœ Stickler has stated that he believes no new laws or regulations are needed for mine safety.

      Tragedy heaped on tragedy…..

      Heck of a job…….and all Republicans lock stepped with this administration over some of the most disasterous years this country has ever experienced.

      1. HSince when do the owners of mines — especially owners who have been fined millions of dollars for numerous safety violations — set the news agenda?

        Here we are, 12 days after the first collapse, with three heroic rescuers dead, six others injured, and the original six trapped miners almost certainly lost forever. And, finally, we have Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman suggesting we “focus like never before on workplace safety” (the Governor had better be prepared for the wrath of Murray: when Hillary Clinton made a similar statement months ago about the importance of workplace safety, Murray attacked her as “anti-American.”)

        I can’t recall any news stories asking questions about mine safety, or bringing up the recess appointment of a political hack…..fox guarding the henhouse approach..that the American people should hear.

        Have you?

      2. ….which is on a jihad to cut bureaucratic regulations (e.g., health and safety regulations in mines) as well as those God-awful frivolous lawsuits brought by the personal injury lawyers representing the estates of the dead miners. 
          From the perspective of this administration, if a few miners have to die for the sake of economic growth, so be it.
          I mean, what do you expect from Bush and Cheney? To raise gas taxes to repair bridges and roads? 

        1. but if there were Republicans blaming a Democratic president for such a travesty you all would be screaming about “where you get your news is corrupt and you are a stupid conservative”. It seems a lot of people on here are blaming Bush for the mine collapse and the bridge collapse. I don’t get it and I think you are being rather foolish in your accusations. Hate the President’s policy all you want, but I think blaming him for the bridge and mine collapses is going a little too far.

          I won’t waste my time looking up all the accidents that happened while a Dem was on guard because that would be hypocritical. That, and everyone knows all bad things only happen during Republican administrations.

            1. So I am no OSHA or MSHA expert, but I feel both organizations felt they were doing a sufficient job and that workers could be safe. And I feel the people overseeing bridge construction did not set out to save money and therefore built faulty bridges. If you can more specifically attribute the accidents to Bush’s actions please do. Clinton cut the percent of GDP spent on defense and also oversaw/guided/caused a robust economy (depending on which economists you believe), yet I don’t blame him for 9/11 or say he valued economic growth over national defense. Blaming Bush for these accidents is ridiculous.

              1. In every single agency, Bush has replaced people who believed in regulation with those that don’t.  It’s that simple.

                In the MSHA he put a mining owner’s man in there. Someone who has fought regulation all his business life.

                Compare our regulations, and the devotion to enforcing them (hint: not much) with Canada. 

                As to 9/11, that had nothing to do with “defense” in the generally used sense of the word.  And Clinton’s outgoing administration did it’s best to warn the new Bush administration what was going on, but they were brushed off.

                A Gore administration may or may not have stopped 9/11, we will never know.  But it’s very reasonable to think that he would have continued the investigations and policies of Bill and might have averted it.

                1. And not sure if you’ve ever heard of the tar sands in Canada, but working conditions there are horrible and standards nonexistent. So I am not sure why we would compare the US an Canada.

                  I understand what you are saying as far as appointments, but still this is an accident and until you can show specific regulations that he revoked which led to this tragic accident you can not place the blame on Bush.

                  Did anyone on here blame Clinton for Columbine? I didn’t, and I won’t blame Bush for Utah or Minnesota.

                  1. 1.  I was VERY careful to not blame Bush, but the the overwhelming evidence is that he didn’t do Jack Shit in the eight months of his administration prior to the disaster.  Remember August 6th PDB?  That the CIA sent an envoy to Crawford to emphasize the immensity of what is going on?  And that Bush told him, “You can go back now, you’ve done your job?”  The agent did, too bad Bush didn’t.

                    2.  I know nothing about the work conditions in the tar sands.  Besides being on the surface, inherently a lot nicer environment than below the earth, I can’t believe that the Canadians are lax on this matter.  They are SO much tougher than the US on mining regulations, and more important, enforcement.  Miners have to have greater air reserves, safe rooms with food and water, etc.

                    If we had a strong MSH instead of cronyism, just maybe those miners might be alive.  You don’t know, and I don’t know, but mining is safer when there are enforced regulations.  BTW, the mine has had hundreds of regulation failures.

                  2.   Yes.  The NSC reports were being delivered to the ranch in Crawfish in Aug. ’01 re:  Arabs taking flying lessons but only interest in maneuvering the plane once in the air, not taking or landing.  The Shrub was too busy clearing brush and playing cowboy for the entire month of August to read the damn reports.
                      I remember reading about Bill Clinton going on vacation to Martha’s Vineyard in ’98.  He interrupted the vacation, flew back to the White House for a few hours to authorize some air strike, and then return the Vineyard for a dinner party at Vernon Jordan’s house and the rest of vacation.
                      There was a man who could multi-task…….

              2. Clinton continued the military cuts that Poppa Bush started. And they were needed. There was (and is) a lot of waste in the military.  Clinton started cuts in intel gathering, but boosted it after the first attack against us (there was plenty of intel to warn us about 9/11, but poor leadership overlooked what they were being told). W. has increased military spending but only to fight this current war. In fact, if you look carefully, W. has actually cut DARPA’s long-term funding that will be needed for our next war (80% likely that it is china). 

                OSHA/MSHA should be examined in light of all this. In particular, documents should be followed and seen what shows up. Keep in mind, that there are other safety issues popping up. Have you noticed the amount of salmonella and other food issues? It is directly related to W.’s cuts on inspectors AND that little to no fines are being applied. I did not mined his cutting the inspection, but if you expect a company to police themselves, then they should be held responsible. That means that major fines should be levied. W’s admin has not done so. We are becoming the west’s version of China. Actually, even worse. In china, they at least shoot the business leaders who fail. Here, the republican party promotes them to such positions as president.

                2. I don’t care who cut what or when. Blaming accidents on the sitting President is foolish. Was Columbine Clinton’s fault because he didn’t have intense security at every school even though a lot of “minor” school shootings were occuring at schools all over the U.S. prior to it? I don’t believe so, because some of these accidents can’t be prevented. If anything, it was their parent’s job to realize something was not right at all.

                  That being said, of course the agencies should be reviewed. If the head of the agency is at fault for poor leadership he should step down. If the mine owners are at fault action should be taken. If it was an unpreventable accident then it should be found to be just so and not blamed on a President. 

                  1.   I don’t remember anyone blaming Clinton for Columbine but I distinctly recall former Republican Speaker Gingrinch attempting Susan Smith, the S.C. woman who drowned her two sons in a lake, on Clinton and values that the Clintons instill in our country.
                      Gingrinch tried doing that until it came to light that Smith’s father, a Christian conservative, was a local Republican county chairman in South Carolina.

                  2. Actually, I would have been looking at Clinton
                    had there been a group that oversaw school security, was gutted, and THEN columbine happened. Trying to compare these 2 events (columbine vs. the bridge/mine) is apple/orange and a total red herring. If they find that the private mine was doing something that it was not suppose to be doing (supposedly retreat mining; in light of the lies about earthquake it is probable), and it would have been prevented under the original MS (unknown by me), AND W. cut MS (he did), then yes, he rightly deserves to take part of the blame. I will be curious to see what shakes out.

          2. After all, the hurricane was a force of nature.

            This is one of the fundamental jobs of government (unless you are a Libertarian) and that is to 1) Make sure the world is relatively safe, and 2) Help citizens when an extraordinary event occurs.

            The Bush administration has been out to lunch on both of these items.

          3. I would join them. And, if the travesties were spread throughout the democratic party, I would cease to be democrat. And if the Republican party represented the approach to government that, by my analysis, more closely strove to serve the interests of all citizens than did the democratic party, I would become a Republican.

            You start with the same erroneous premise that Lauren did in another post: That party affiliation is generally arbitrary, and that responses to the behaviors of party operatives are generally based on that arbitrary affiliation rather than the rational cause of selecting that affiliation. By making that assumption, you are asserting that no one other than you forms their political allegiances as the result of careful consideration, that we are all just reacting from the fixed vantage of our partisan affiliations rather than forming those affiliations based on the things we are reacting to.

            1. You would really join either group in blaming a tragic accident on a President? Also, you are putting words in my mouth. Stop it. I don’t care about Republican/Democratic party affiliation.

              You can instate endless safety regulations and accidents will still happen. Government can not always save us. There are so many flaws which make your position faulty and weak. Should the President have forced the mines to stop at 1,000 feet? Maybe. Should the President have forced all bridges listed on the repair list to be replaced immediately? Maybe. Would a new bridge or more shallow mine still be prone to accidents? Yes. Should the President be laden with guilt for the tragic accidents? No. Where does it stop? Is he to blame in the deaths of the rescuers as well? Should we have stricter regulations on how long they must wait or how much research must be done on the shifting earth before they can go after trapped miners? Or should we only have strip mines?

              I am not trying to stick up for Bush so much as I am trying to illustrate how completely foolish it is to blame these accidents on him. You can hate the guy for the Iraq war and whatever else, but when you blame him for these accidents you are just plain wrong.

              I read an article in the Pueblo paper (conservative/liberal I don’t care, it was an article that I found informative). It discussed how the state bridge inspector will often label bridges as unsafe and in need of repair. However he also said these bridges are not repaired or labeled extremely dangerous because they are still structurally sound in his opinion… but of course an accident could happen. The guy even said he doesn’t pray “daily but I do pray weekly” that an accident won’t happen. Is that wrong? Should all of our bridges be brand new? Even if they were we would still be susceptible to accidents. Blaming the President…ANY President…is foolish.

              1. I hadn’t read the post which identified “the travesty” to which you were referring: I had assumed it was one of the many incredible flubs committed by his administration. Sorry about that. As for whether Bush deserves some blame for the mine and bridge failures, I don’t really know. Probably not, but it would require a bit of an analysis to determine for sure.

                1. If the directors really did repeal specific regulations that would have saved people in either situation then Bush can be under fire. Until then I think accidents should not be blamed on sitting Presidents. Thanks for the reply though, I appreciate it and am glad to hear that is what happened!

          4. Could it be that many of us are not JUST annoyed that Bush invaded Iraq and began an elective war without adequately planning for what would come next? Or that his detractors are utterly flummoxed by Bush’s mismanagement of the Hurricane Katrina disaster? Or that we grow increasingly irritated by his ignoring science and the subsequent inaction on global warming (which sets him apart from all other Western leaders)? After more than six and a half years in office, it’s ALL about PERFORMANCE and POLICY!! And on both counts, this prez, and the newly “let’s get out of Dodge before the posse arrives” Karl Rove have LOST the public…..and maybe the Republic.

            He APPOINTS political hacks…often on recess appointment… who do nothing……or worse, work AGAINST the mission of the organizations they purport to head. The stunning incompetence is just too much to tolerate.

            It’s not really incompetence. They’re good at destroying government.

      1. Rabid, gun toting, self centered, macho, right wingers. OK, some lefties, too.  But you seldom here of lefties doing things like this.

        Big Man, there, pissed off at a man doing his necessary job and won’t fight him without his gun.  And there are those that keep denying the phallic metaphor of guns.

        Does he have a concealed carry permit?

        I hope he rots for a long time.

        1. just like cigars, a gun is just a gun.  And a yellow b**tard who won’t stand barehanded, toe to toe with someone is just a yellow b**tard.  But I do agree with you about the rotting part.

    2. David Duke? Abrahoff? Delay? etc
      Jefferson? etc.

      Look, every party has members with issues. I find it funny that you judge a party based on 1 member. Now, if we had a string of these (esp at top levels), then I would say that you have point. But this is just silly.

    1. and not a popularly-passed constitutional amendment that makes it a lot easier to “follow the rule of law to fix it.” Why give them credit for that?

      1. But several legislators stoood up and said no, it was not a typo. It was a mistake and needs to be fixed but doing “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” and having it fixed as a typo is not right.

        When you have Don Young adding an earmark as a typo it’s nice to see a legislature following the law.

          1. In Arkansas they admitted they made a mistake and accepted that the law is what they wrote. And are now going to fix it.

            For amendment 41 the legislature passed a law trying to pretend it did not say what it clearly said and is now hoping the courts go along with it.

            – dave

    2. …how do you say that?  See ya later!

      How funny! No “Not.”

      Human error has become the causative factor, increasingly, as we nail down technology.  Planes hardly ever crash due to engine or other mechanical malfunctions, or even weather, any more.  It’s almost always human error. 

      My favorite example is the )Mars?) probe that crashed not too many years ago. Seems that part of the software team worked in metric and part in English.  So when it came to, uh, crunch time, the poor little thing got so confused it just didn’t do anything.

      Now, how many humans worked on that part of the project?  How many signed off?  How many ran debugging programs?  And yet, we have a pile of rubble out there. 

  11. he wasn’t carrying concealed, he was carrying openly. 
    No “concealed carry” permit needed.
    No permit of any type needed.
    Anyone who’s not a convicted felon or certified insane has that right.

    I live in El Paso County, where the laws may be different.
    Open carry is prohibited in banks, at schools and at the library.  Pretty much everywhere else, openly wearing a handgun in a holster outside your outermost clothing is legal. 

    A store owner may prohibit it on his premises, but the law is silent. 

    A couple years ago, a guy walked into Colorado Springs City Council Chambers for a City Council meeting.  Carrying a loaded shotgun.
    City Council here is totally pro-gun. 
    But this really shook them up, and they actually thought that it was prohibited.  They asked a city policeman to disarm the guy.
    On what grounds, the policeman asked. 
    The gunman agreed to unload and break his weapon down, holding the pieces in his lap during the meeting.

    I personally had a guy working at the Table Mesa Quarry south of C Springs off Highway 115 brandish a gun, running me off public land, when I tried to check out Aiken Canyon, when its disposition was not yet settled.  He was implicitly threatening to kill me if I didn’t do as he said.  El Paso County Sheriff’s Deputies saw nothing wrong with that. 

    I used to be a heavy weapons specialist in SF.  I love guns and playing with them.  But this is not the “Wild West” anymore.  I don’t think folks should be walking down Tejon or Nevada with Mac-10’s on their hips. 

    The people who advocate for that right, though, don’t seem to believe in it so much when being exercised to intimidate THEM.
    /

    1. I missed that nuance.

      When I was the hotel dick at the Brown Palace/Comfort Inn we had a guest wearing his piece try to check in.  He was very cordial, but I told him that this is private property and we do not allow it.  I can’t remember putting it in the security office, so I assume that he left it in his car.

    2. Usually I wouldn’t expect someone on the tip of the spear to see the big picture, but these guys seem to.  I know that, when I commanded troops in Korea, on a DMZ guardpost, all I could see was the threat right across the border, and had little sense of South Korean politics.
      For example, during my tour, General Chun Doe Hwan mounted a coup and made himself president, and made another General, Noh Tae Ooh, VP (Noh later became the next President.)  I didn’t know any of this until months later. 

      These All-American NCO’s and Speedy 4 are a lot more aware of what’s driving the storm they’re in.  Good for them.  I served as a Spec 4 in the 82nd during the Vietnam War, in Fayettenam, and rarely thought about anything more than where the gang might go that night for entertainment.  In 1972, few of us were at risk of being sent to South East Asia involuntarily. 

    4. But do we really want six NCO’s determining military policy?  I know I dont…that’s why they have what, 8 or 9 ranks above them.

      It’s nice to hear their opinions, but for the President to be taking their advice would be like the CEO of WalMart asking a lead cashier how to run a store…

      1. …those bottom tier workers know far better than a manager what the hell is going on.

        You think the generals sitting safely in the Pentagon, massaging events for their careers, know better than the men and women wearing thos boots?

        No way.

        1. … As long as those “wearing the boots” folks ostensibly agree with your own biases, at least.  If they don’t, well, then they’re clearly too close and personally and emotionally invested to the outcome to be a serious and acceptable critic.

          Kind of convenient, really.

        2. But this isnt a matter of these low level people understanding what’s going on. 

          I worked at Target as a “Team Leader” for about 2 years.  I was essentially 2 steps above cashiers and floor staff and a step below an actual manager.  Of course, when it came to my department, I knew far more than my immediate manager and the store manager.  But at the end of the day, I wasnt responsible for anything.  If the store was operating like crap, it was the managers’ problem, not mine. 

          The ultimate responsibility for concluding this war lies in the hands of the “generals sitting safely in the Pentagon” (along w/ the prez obviously) much the same as the successful operation of Target lies in the hands of a bunch of people sitting in Minneapolis.  This Specialist and Seargeants arent the ones who hold any sort of final responsibility.  They can push any ideas they want and I’m glad to hear them do it, but it’s not a decision they are qualified to make.  There is a chain of command for a reason.

          And Yokel makes an interesting point.  If the article said these folks thought things were just swell, would you still think they had a better understanding of the war than people sitting on the sidelines?  I should hope you would, but I know a lot of people wouldnt…

          History doesnt judge the grunts, it judges those with the responsibility to make decisions.

          1. I would want confirmation.  Other sources, reports that bombings and killings were going down to support that.  But obviously, that’s not what’s happening. 

            There’s another deep psychological factor at play here. Everyone wants to feel that the work that they do has value. When you believe it does, you get out of bed and feel good about going to work.  We call it morale.

            If a soldier (or anyone else) realizes his work is meaningless, he or she loses his or her morale.  People, especially soldiers without options, know that is a bad place to be in, so they convince themselves their work is important. 

            Sign me, Willy Loman, who caught on in time. 

          2. As I am a manager in a retail establishment and held similar positions as your target “team leader” position in the past you are absolutely right. If things in the store are in the toilet it is ultimately not your responsibility, but at the same time if things are going poorly managers know that the people that deal with customers most often, and directly (ie you), are the first people to go. But, really, it is a false comparison for more reasons than the obvious you were a teenager working a retail job (where people usually dont care that much).

            The specialists and the Saergents hold the ultimate responsibily in that their lives are on the line. What makes you say they arent qualified to make decisions? I often listen to my salespeople because they have been in the game a lot longer than I have and they are literally the reason why I will get promoted.

            It seems to me when meeting with higher ups that they deal more in theory and strategy where people on the front lines deal in actualities. Dont get me wrong, theory and strategy are important in both military and business, but when they fail more often than not the lower echelons deal with the ramifications much more heavily than the higher ups do. Since we are talking anecdotes a recent discussion with a fellow manager got me thinking. We are both managers of a similar product and he mentioned that through all the layers of management the entire company’s, all the outlets, would have to tank, replace all salespeople, managers, buyers, and regional managers many times over before the head of our product would be replaced. Thats a lot of people considering that the person in question isnt even an official executive.

            Yokel makes an interesting point if you consider that he totally side steps the article and attempts to discredit it by asking a question which isnt really relevant since no article has been presented with multiple grunts saying that things are going swell. Of course, he says that things are going swell all the time, but he never inserts personal experience to make a point; that is, according to him and response to Aristotle.

Leave a Comment

Recent Comments


Posts about

Donald Trump
SEE MORE

Posts about

Rep. Lauren Boebert
SEE MORE

Posts about

Rep. Yadira Caraveo
SEE MORE

Posts about

Colorado House
SEE MORE

Posts about

Colorado Senate
SEE MORE

59 readers online now

Newsletter

Subscribe to our monthly newsletter to stay in the loop with regular updates!